Interview Tips for Museum Professionals

Hi! Podcast host here. If you’re planning to be interviewed soon, here are four quick tips to keep in mind:

1. Turn off your phone or other distractions. Stay focused on the interview. Even if it’s audio-only, your tone conveys where your focus is. If you’re distracted, the audience will be too and loose interest.

2. Answer the question that is being asked and keep it concise. If it’s a recorded interview that will be edited, in some ways, you can choose who does the first round of editing: is it you? Or is it me? By planning out answers ahead of time, you can help craft the narrative of the conversation. If your answer is five minutes long, then I’ll edit that down in post-production.

3. Prepare for the interview ahead of time. Whether the host gives you questions in advance or not, be ready with your own set of soundbites and key takeaways.

4. Know the audience. You can ask the interviewer questions ahead of time about the topic, audience, show reach etc. so that you can make more relevant points.

Another way to think about it is that we’re choreographing a conversation that we want people to eavesdrop into. What are the elements of a good conversation? For me, the words that come to mind are: insightful, relevant, witty (perhaps), engaging. That is what we’re trying to emulate, while also elevating the conversation beyond party chit chat.

As a host and editor, I try to prepare guests as much as possible through pre-interviews and tech checks, and then make the conversation sound engaging in the final edit. I want to the guest to shine in the interview, but it takes two to make interview magic happen.

So go forth, be prepared, and good luck!

Celebrating six months of The Distance Learning Workbook!

Today I’m celebrating six months since I published The Distance Learning Workbook: A Launch Guide for Museums!

I loved creating it and sharing it with field. It’s been super exciting to see how the workbook has been used by museums around the world. The workbook also spawned a mini-ecosystem of content including nationwide webinars and a podcast mini-series!

Six Month Snapshot:

• Downloaded by organizations from around the world;

• Led nine webinars with museum associations across the U.S. from Alaska to New Hampshire, focusing on topics from the workbook;

• Produced Museum Buzz Mini-S3ries diving into topics such as accessibility, online communities, and social-emotional learning.

If you’ve used the workbook and would like to share your experience, please email me! If you haven’t downloaded it yet, get it (for free!) here.

Museum Buzz Mini S3ries: Online Communities & Distance Learning

“When we’re talking about community, we have to be really clear: are we facilitating transactional type of activities? Or are we striving to create interactions where we’re really hoping to connect people? not just with the organization, the group, the team, but with each other?”

— Dr. Lauren Vargas

Dr. Lauren Vargas focuses a lot of her work with institutions on the strategy and design of their digital ecosystem -- including how to engage and build communities. This was increasingly important with the pivot to digital programs in the pandemic and our conversation explores best practices for engaging and empathizing with that community; how to remain relevant and grow; and how to create a community pact that creates norms and expectations for the members. 

Dr. Lauren Vargas, is owner of the consultancy, Your Digital Tattoo and a One-by-One research associate with the University of Leicester. 

This Mini S3ries (Season Three of Museum Buzz), came out of a publication that I released in May of 2021 called The Distance Learning Workbook: A Launch Guide for Museums, which walks museums through the four foundational components of building a distance learning program. It is free to download on my website!

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Full Interview Transcript

[00:00:00] Emily Kotecki: Welcome to Museum Buzz, a podcast where we unpack trendy, buzzy words in museums, through conversation and games. I'm Emily Kotecki. This is Season Three, the Mini Series, where we are featuring three incredible guests talking about three very important topics related to distance learning, such as accessibility and social emotional learning.

Today, we're going to talk about building online communities with Dr. Lauren Vargas, independent researcher and consultant of Your Digital Tattoo, as well as a one by one research associate with the University of Leicester. She is based in the Netherlands. Lauren, thank you for being here.

[00:00:46] Lauren Vargas: Great to be here. Thanks for the opportunity to chat with you. 

[00:00:48] Emily Kotecki: Lauren, I'd love to hear a little bit more to share with our listeners about what you do and specifically on your website it says you're a digital dragon wrangler. So what does that mean?

[00:01:00] Lauren Vargas: That means I deal with all the elements of digital that most people do not like to handle, such as governance, things around inclusive conversation and community building. The really like in-depth nitty gritty, strategy design and governance elements. It's, it's tackling the really sticky issues around digital that may or may not have clear cut answers, but really helping people and organizations better understand how digital works with their context and conditions. 

[00:01:36] Emily Kotecki: You've mentioned kind of building community, and in the context of online learning, we have never had a more active year of building communities in an online learning space then in this last year. When you look back at the landscape, what do you feel like we've learned about building online communities?

[00:01:54] Lauren Vargas: So I think we need to be careful in how we define community.

I think that there have been a lot of online sites that have spaces that have popped up over the last year and a quarter as a result of, of having to work and communicate and collaborate remotely. But those don't necessarily make it a community.

Um, when we talk about what the essence of a community is, I really kind of go back to Carrie Melissa Jones and Charles Vogel's definition or criteria for a really good community from their book 'Building Brand Communities,' in which they say there are three foundational elements. The first is choice. The second is connection. And the third is progress.

And I think that when we're talking about community, we have to be really clear: are we facilitating transactional type of activities? Or are we striving to create interactions where we're really hoping to connect people, not just with the organization, the group, the team, but with each other? They have a choice they want to participate.

And that there's some type of, of common ground that is being, that is being understood to help propel either the individual, or the individual and the community, towards some progressive milestones, some growth. And so I think that online community has existed for quite some time. And I think, you know, online community in an educational environment has always been there.

We've seen a growth of you know, quote unquote, communities. It's whether those communities, how they have either morphed from what they were or how they were built during the pandemic, if they can sustain with engaging interactions, sticky relationship building.

[00:03:47] Emily Kotecki: I'm going to kind of go into that first one choice that you mentioned. When we think about online learning, people might share similar motivations for signing up, but different ideas on the learner perspective from maybe versus the museum or library perspective about what it means to engage and create that community.

So how do you help organizations think about, taking the, the choice, the people's choice to sign up for that course, into building a community and making those connections, which was your second one.

[00:04:16] Lauren Vargas: It comes down to you, you know, creating some empathetic connection, right? So, so understanding for whom is this community being built for whom, you know, are the community resources being used and how they are being used. Rather than it being projected by the team or the organization, right? 

It needs to really revolve around the user needs and expectations. And that can only happen through understanding, developing that empathetic connection and then applying that empathetic connection. So just as I would, through any type of digital transformation effort, I would counsel you know, any type of organization or group wanting to either further their community development or create a brand new community, you know, do some dynamic journey mapping, right? 

Understand the different types of experiences that you want to cultivate. Give them a choice for multiple paths versus a one size fits all for the entire community, because you may have common ground. You may have even some common, um, progressive milestones that you want to reach together.

But there are going to be different paths, different methods of engagement that you are going to have to, to, to develop to really kind of surface and be able to deliver to unique community member needs.

[00:05:39] Emily Kotecki: I guess thinking about this idea of this definition of community, do you feel like it's, maybe the word I'm looking for is, elastic? Because with online learning that there might be a virtual field trip, and maybe the, you would say this is going more into the transactional mode, right? Where it's, you're not going to develop community in that, in that 30, 45 minute time span, or maybe you believe you can.

So I'm wondering when we think about different time spent together, is the definition of community elastic enough to allow something special, to build in a short time versus a multi, like a longer course, let's say.

[00:06:13] Lauren Vargas: For sure. There are different types of communities, right? There are communities of interest, action, place, activism, practice and circumstance. And there could be a hybrid of how those communities, you know, come together. And time is one of those elements. Think about community as that connective tissue.

So no matter how they're coming together in a physical or digital space, they can asynchronously, you know, come together in a community environment and, you know, delve a bit deeper or become more connected or engaged through certain activities. You know, those physical experiences or transactions, they're the launch pad, right?

Or the activities that get people really excited and maybe interested and to see who else is part of their space. The community itself, that connective tissue, is all of those little tiny, you know, daily, weekly, monthly activities, um, interactions that then form some type of relationship over time.

[00:07:18] Emily Kotecki: Is that where it gets to your point. You mentioned earlier about sustainability?

[00:07:21] Lauren Vargas: Yes. Yeah. And I think to your point, I mean, communities can spin up and spin down, you know, based upon, you know, tying together. I think what is misunderstood, um, in a lot of cases, when I'm dealing with organizations, either wanting to create community or they want to evolve their current community, is to understand if you want those deeper relationships, you want that empathetic connection, it's going to take more time and more resource. 

It's not just going to happen through a couple of abstract activities or transactions. It's really going to have to be deliberate and consistent behavior and facilitation and inclusive, you know, boundaries.

[00:08:06] Emily Kotecki: And this might be going to the direction where you mentioned earlier, the idea of nitty gritty and sticky. I just kind of liked the sound of that. What do you find are those sticky spots with developing online communities that are, it might be sticky spots and they might be blind spots for museums trying to develop this that they're not aware of?

[00:08:25] Lauren Vargas: So, communities may have a code of conduct or a terms of service. Um, but those aren't really written with a human- first perspective in mind. It's usually, you know, to kind of a watch. You know, legal terms, we need more of a social contract that brings together our community members. And I prefer to consider that a community pact.

And one of those sticky issues is really defining what are the boundaries of your community? Now I am all about creating inclusive conversations, inclusive communities spaces, but we need to have really clear boundaries of what is considered safe, right? What is considered part of the norms and expectations of our community?

Because as we onboard, as we want to retain community members, we need to signal what that safety is by modeling the behavior that we seek. And I see so many times that we haven't done enough of that thinking about what defines safety? Who do we want to exclude because of certain actions or behaviors?

And I know that that might sound a little counter to being inclusive, but if we don't have, and hold those boundaries for safe space, we can't have that sustainable a resilient community. 

[00:09:40] Emily Kotecki: That reminds me, um, there's a news outlet called Axios and they just released the, just, it was like it was in the last. What is time these days? But like, it was a recently released an audience bill of rights, where basically it was, and I don't know how they formed it. Right. So maybe we can talk about like, when you create this community pact, who were, who is involved in creating it?

But I liked that idea because it wasn't them saying, this is our journalistic standards. But it was saying that you, as an audience, you as our community of people who read us and trust us have rights too, in this relationship.

[00:10:15] Lauren Vargas: That's exactly what a community pact is. It's really, it's being very clear and deliberate with what are those expectations of the organization or the group, whatever it is, whomever is building that community. And then what are the expectations of the community members? You know, I see so many times whether it's in community guidelines, something like don't be a jerk.

Well my definition of jerk is going to be, maybe different than your definition, right? So we have to be clear and deliberate in the language that we use. And when I'm going through the community pact creation process, it needs to be co-designed. It needs to be co-developed with your community members, right? It's not just you projecting what you want, what you expect, what you want those community members to do think and feel. It's more along the lines of this is a dynamic social contract that you are going to continuously come back to, it should be anchored in your organizational values, your community values. And then how do you make those values actionable? What are those behaviors?

 And it also serves as guidance as well. So you can be really clear, you know, this is how we handle a subtle act of exclusion.

 When we talk about accountability, this is what we mean by accountable. No, you're three strikes and out, you know, what counts as a strike? You know, what, what are those specific boundaries? You are being incredibly detailed and it's not from the standpoint of don't do this, don't do that, but it is more of a sharing your reasoning.

We want to behave like this. We expect this because we're cultivating this type of community and that it's part of everyone's responsibility to hold and maintain that stuff. 

[00:12:00] Emily Kotecki: If you could put a number on with the organizations that you work with, or they're just the ones that you see being in the space, how many do you feel like have that or invest time in that?

[00:12:11] Lauren Vargas: Very very, very few. In fact, they'll invest time in it once a crisis has occurred. You know, whether it's happened once or it happened so egregiously, then it becomes a, oh well now we need to do something. And they've already lost maybe half of their community members and to work and build up that trust and belonging all over again, it is incredibly stressful and time consuming and, you know, sucks all the energy, not just from the people that are creating or building that community, but from the community members themselves. 

So if you put that effort upfront, you know, it's, it's not, it's not the flashiest of things when you're putting together a community, but it's the most important when you're thinking about what, what's the community scaffolding look like.

This Is part of it.

[00:12:59] Emily Kotecki: We had talked about earlier, we mentioned three kind of key pieces of building community: choice, connection, and progress. We have touched on and there's so much talk, but choice, choice, and connection. Tell me more about what do you mean by progress?

[00:13:13] Lauren Vargas: I see so often organizations and when I say organization, that can mean museums, you know, for-profit, private public sector. Oftentimes, what I see is that community, the organization forces its goals and objectives on the community and says, you know, this is what you need to work on and strive for, rather than just as the community pact is co-created and co-designed, you're asking your community members, what do you need? Right. How do we help you progress? Um, what can we do to progress together? You know, there are different pace layers of change within the community. You have your individual group, greater community, um, type of, of, of pace layers. So they're going to need different things at different times.

That's not to say that you can't, you know use or, or ask your community to help you along your own progression. Um, but you need to have some type of value exchange. So, what does that acknowledgement and reward and resourcing look like from the community members perspective? And knowing that their progress isn't going to be at the same speed or have the same ambition as your own.

So who, whom are you there to serve, right? And represent.

[00:14:34] Emily Kotecki: So making it relevant, really listening to the online community and making it relevant. 

[00:14:40] Lauren Vargas: Real and relevant. 

[00:14:42] Emily Kotecki: Before we switch in a minute to our game at the end of every episode, is there anything about online communities in the context of online learning that we haven't had a chance to discuss?

[00:14:53] Lauren Vargas: I would just emphasize community is absolutely amazing, but you need to, you need to have the resources to support it. And so the build it and they will come approach will not work. And for a community pact to be modeled and, and everyone held accountable. And for those same boundaries to be upheld, you're going to need to resource in a community manager. And that community manager can't just be somebody that does this off the side of their desk. It is part of a full-time responsibility. It is part of a learning effort. This, this learning, these insights and the community itself needs to be part of a feedback loop and integrated into your entire digital ecosystem.

It can't just stand on its own. It can't just be discreet. It needs to really be looped into the organization's efforts and really the community itself, their broader ecosystem. So it just can't, it can't be on its own. 

[00:15:57] Emily Kotecki: Lauren, the next part of our discussion together is a game in which I'm going to ask you three questions about online community. Basically in the early aughts in prior, um, before maybe even, you know, at the very early, you know, years of online communities. So are you ready? 

[00:16:15] Lauren Vargas: Okay. 

[00:16:17] Emily Kotecki: Before, before Facebook and MySpace, there was this 2002 online community that was one of the first web based social networks.

[00:16:29] Lauren Vargas: The well, 

[00:16:31] Emily Kotecki: Friendster.

[00:16:33] Lauren Vargas: Oh, Friendster. I should've known. Yes. The Well it's pretty much before 2002. So yeah. 

[00:16:38] Emily Kotecki: I don't even know what the well is, well, let's think early in this one, I'm going to give slight hint. Um, what year did AOL? And for those, maybe I feel like most people would know AOL, but just in case America online, what year did AOL's live chat rooms launch?

[00:16:55] Lauren Vargas: Oh gosh, Emily, you're going to make me sound like I'm not a digital, like I'm not a technologist at all by not these. 

[00:17:01] Emily Kotecki: I reached, I reached for our far back into the timeline. Um, so it is. Is it here? I'll give you a choice. 19 99, 19 89, 19 

[00:17:16] Lauren Vargas: for sure. 

[00:17:17] Emily Kotecki: 89.

[00:17:18] Lauren Vargas: 89. 

[00:17:20] Emily Kotecki: I'll send you the I'll send you the link.

[00:17:22] Lauren Vargas: This is so embarrassing. I'm going to have to, like, I needed to study for this, you know, book person, you know, so I'm a. 

[00:17:30] Emily Kotecki: For listeners: Lauren had no idea this game was coming. She had I told her before started recording. So it is, she is a genius. She doesn't need to know facts. is just for fun. But now this is, this might maybe be even the harder one, right? Um, Wikipedia may be one of the most famous online communities among many others.

The first crowdsourced article created was on which English letter, which investigated the origins and usage of such letter. And you have 26 choices.

[00:18:03] Lauren Vargas: Oh, gosh, Emily. 

[00:18:08] Emily Kotecki: It's the latter, half of the alphabet. Now you have 13.

[00:18:12] Lauren Vargas: R. 

[00:18:14] Emily Kotecki: Very close. It was you, 

[00:18:16] Lauren Vargas: Ah, okay. I've today. 

[00:18:18] Emily Kotecki: Well, we all learned something new today, I really enjoyed diving into these trivia questions cause I also have no idea about the early beginnings of online communities. So, um, it is a really fascinating space and Dr. Lauren Vargas, I really appreciate your time today.

[00:18:33] Lauren Vargas: Thank you so much, Emily. 

[00:18:34] Emily Kotecki: This mini series came out of a publication that I released in May of 2021 called The Distance Learning Workbook: A Launch Guide for Museums, which walks museums through the four foundational components of building a distance learning program. Especially in the wake of the pandemic, many museums are pivoting to distance learning and needed to answer the question of "where do I begin?" The workbook is very interactive and hands-on walking museums through questions and activities relating to targeting audiences, identifying stakeholders, doing a technology audit, really making it relevant to your institution.

It is free and downloadable on my website, emily-kotecki.com. But, a workbook can only do so much. There's only so much time and length that people want to spend. And there is so much to cover in distance learning, which is where this podcast series came out of. So, it is an accompaniment to the workbook and I hope you enjoy the interviews.

I hope you enjoy the workbook. And if you have any questions about either of these or want to talk through ideas or work together, you can contact me through my website, emily-kotecki.com. 

If you are interested in hearing the other episodes from the miniseries about accessibility or social emotional learning, or you want to go back and listen to seasons one or two of Museum Buzz, they are all available online, wherever you listen to your podcasts. Thank you again for listening. Thank you to all of our guests, I'm Emily Kotecki. .

Museum Buzz Mini S3ries: SEL & Distance Learning

“ There is a responsibility at this point for museums to address a lot of this conversation and these challenging issues that students want to talk about and that teachers are struggling with. ”

— Kristin Smith

Kristin Smith, Project Manager at the North Carolina Museum of Art, shares her experience of creating an online course for educators about social emotional learning (SEL), including the structure of the course; the benefits and challenges of teaching this content online; and why museums have a responsibility to create ways for visitors to learn about SEL. 

This Mini S3ries, season Three of Museum Buzz, came out of a publication that I released in May of 2021 called The Distance Learning Workbook: A Launch Guide for Museums, which walks museums through the four foundational components of building a distance learning program. It is free to download on my website!

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Full Transcript

Emily Kotecki: [00:00:00]  Welcome to Museum Buzz, a podcast where we unpack trendy, buzzy words in museums, through conversation and games. I'm Emily Kotecki.   This is Season Three: the Mini Series, where we are featuring three incredible guests talking about three very important topics related to distance learning, such as accessibility, online communities and today we're diving in to social emotional learning with Kristin Smith.   

Kristin is a longtime friend and colleague and the program manager at the North Carolina Museum of Art. She has been developing online courses since 2013, most recently developing a course for educators about art and social emotional learning.

Kristin, thanks for being here.

Kristin Smith: [00:00:49] Thanks Emily. 

Emily Kotecki: [00:00:50] Let's begin by defining what is social emotional learning?

Kristin Smith: [00:00:56] Well, first off, we should say that it's been around for a very long time. It's not a new thing.  But really it is about helping students develop a set of skills, set of mindsets, ways of being in the world that help them to become more aware of how they feel, how they react, who they are in the world.

 But then also a better sense of those around them and the bigger context of the world. So a sense of how they then interact with the rest of the world and what that means, how  to navigate the complexities of life in a way that feels that manageable . So we are, we're all still social, emotionally learning. It doesn't ever stop. This isn't just for kids, isn't just for young kids. It's for older kids. It's for adults. It's for everyone. 

 You mentioned that it has been around for a while,  the concept of social emotional learning, but it does seem like in recent years it's become a very popular kind of focus, especially in museums. Why do you think it has re-emerged in the focus of museums?

A great question. And I think that from my perspective, it's also indirect because I work with schools and teachers so much it's it's about museums, but we directly serve students and teachers. Um, so in thinking of that audience, the major disruptions that have happened over the course of the last year, more you're in more in tandem with a lot of the racial injustice, the protests,  a reckoning that's happening with who we are in the world and what we are trying to grapple with as we move forward. It's caused a lot of feelings. [Laughter] And I think that people are grappling with how to navigate all of this and how to have conversations about it. 

And so there's the past year but I think that in general, there's been a rise in a lot of mental health focus, especially with teenagers and even younger kids of, uh, and I think we've lost a lot of opportunities to teach those skills to students. It's falling on schools to return to some of those real core ideas of what it is to be human and, and move through the world as an essential part of learning.

Emily Kotecki: [00:03:25] So, can you describe the course that you have created for teachers to  give them those skills to then help students?

Kristin Smith: [00:03:33] So the course that we designed is rooted in the CASEL framework for SEL. But the, the core competencies are around self-awareness, social awareness, self-management, relationship skills and responsible decision-making.  We wanted to make sure to go beyond those SEL competencies so that we're maximizing that exposure to arts based learning because we're an art museum. And so our collection, our art is the thing that allows everyone to be inspired, find connection. So we wanted to make sure that we are really hitting the art hard in the course.

So we took those competencies and layered another framework on top of that. So we chose five themes that allow for the, the most direct relationship  with art, looking at art, talking about art and making art. So the course is designed into eight modules where teachers are, uh, introduced to what SEL is, just the general definition and why it's important and what it means.

But then they're introduced to five themes that become the lenses in which we look at art and we look at SEL. So those five themes are mindfulness, identity, perspective sharing, community building, and agency. 

They're looking at strategies and resources that are connected to those themes and they're looking at project ideas, art making ideas that they could do related to those themes. And then throughout the whole thing, I think what's at the core of the course is, that they have ,are being asked to do a reflective journaling practice.

So whether it's called visual journaling or Sketchnoting, um, they are constantly reflecting because so much of what's important about social emotional learning is that there's a kind of processing that's happening, where you're thinking about who you were, who you are now, who you may be, and we're hoping to take them through a creative processing where they're reflecting on who they are within the theme, the artwork, the SEL competency, what they're maybe already doing, and then what they hope to be doing. 

It is an adult SEL course also. It's not just that we're giving them strategies for them to take into the classroom.

We're helping them to also go through the same things that they might ask their students to go through.  

  Emily Kotecki: [00:06:08] Can you maybe give an example of how specifically you use an object to teach SEL because there are so many layers, like you said, there's the lens of the five themes of thinking about art making and objects to then look at SEL.

So could you give an example of how an object was used in that context?

  Kristin Smith: [00:06:29] In a real straightforward way, which I think a lot of us in museums have done. We've used a work of art to just identify emotion. So that self-awareness piece. We have a mindful moment with Monet where we teach a 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 strategy where they're identifying through their senses, five things they might see four things that they might hear and so forth. And that is really about shifting your awareness away from the things that are feeling anxious inside of you to something that's outside yourself. and so you're taking your mind away from the thing that is circling wildly through your head.

You're looking at a work of art. You're learning a coping strategy to help you then bring your brainwaves down and focus in a different way. So that's a really simple strategy that we do. You can do that with really any work of art.  There's so many works of art where we are in that self-awareness lens, having students think about their own identity.

So a whole range of artists and artworks. We use Beverly McIver Hank Willis Thomas,  Minnie Evans, artists that are exploring the complexities of their identities. Um, and, and when you are looking at another person's work and learning about what matters to them, how they have become who they are, it makes you then think about your own story and want to make art that tells your story as well.

Emily Kotecki: [00:07:59] What are the challenges of teaching SEL in distance learning?

Kristin Smith: [00:08:04] I think the number one thing about teaching SEL in an online setting. Which I think has been the whole year for all teachers is it's a different relationship that you have. It doesn't mean that you can't have strong relationships. I think all teachers figured that out over the years, that there are still so many ways to connect with your students and learn more about them and find ways to get them to share more about their lives with you.

But I do think that so much of SEL is about human interaction. Um, and I think we all know  human interaction is very complex and it's really built on the relationships that you create. So your classroom community is built on those relationships. So anyone that has done work with distance learning, you know, that it is different than when you do face-to-face.

So there's just that challenge of not having a side conversation with a teacher that's at your workshop or not being able to read someone's face as well, because it's just through a discussion post. So I think there are challenges and you can design around that in a lot of different ways to find ways to build a community within your online, your distance learning program.

Emily Kotecki: [00:09:23] What are some of the ways that you design around it ?

 Kristin Smith: [00:09:26] Yeah. So we provide as many opportunities as possible for educators to engage in discussion. So real authentic discussions where they're sharing challenges that they are having in the classroom and then offering solutions to each other using online tools where people are sharing their, their opinions.

So Padlet is always a great resource. Flipgrid is always a great resource where teachers are either written or verbally interpreting works of art and sharing their ideas so that you're getting a chance to hear and see other people's voices conversations don't bounce back and forth as they might in person, unless you are doing a synchronous conversation with your, with your teachers, which we do get that opportunity when we do webinars, but not as much. 

Emily Kotecki: [00:10:18] So, I guess to flip the initial question, what are some of the qualities of online learning that provide unique ways or really kind of different ways to teach SEL?

Kristin Smith: [00:10:30] And this is the one that I got, I struggled with.  So I think one thing always the case with any distance learning is that you can streamline information and structure information and design experiences that can happen in a more condensed format that you might not be able to if you're doing face-to-face, someone is interacting with content on their own time in their own space and so you can ask things of your participants that you may not be able to in a face to face. You can move at a quick pace. So I think you can pack a lot more in. and provide a multitude of opportunities for engagement, same way that you could with face-to-face, but different. 

 At times, and we get a little more bang for your buck, but you miss out on the opportunity of being with people. Um, so I think for a lot of people, distance learning is just perfect because it fits their, their goals. 

Emily Kotecki: [00:11:42] What was similar or different in terms of creating an SEL and art course versus other courses that you've created, the integrate art with math or science?

Kristin Smith: [00:11:52] Well, I think this goes back to your initial question about why museums are interested in SEL right now. Um, I think that there is a responsibility at this point for museums to address a lot of this conversation and these challenging issues that want to talk about and that teachers are struggling with.

Um, and I think through art, it's an opportunity to enter into those conversations in a really meaningful way. So I think with this course, it felt really important. And that was different. I mean, not that the either courses didn't feel important. I always think that bringing art into all classrooms is so essential because of the same reasons.

Um, I think that art is a catalyst for people to know themselves better. And, and that's why I like those courses. I want math teachers to have more art in their classrooms and I want, uh, to see, you know, every classroom teacher think about ways of using art. I just think that we're at a moment in time that understanding ourselves a little bit better and understanding others a little bit better could make a pretty significant difference. 

Emily Kotecki: [00:13:10] Okay. And as we begin to wrap up, what is one best practice after going through this process of creating a course, um, that listeners could walk away with, if they wanted to integrate SEL into their online learning programs?

Kristin Smith: [00:13:24] You need to know your audience. I think that you need to have some conversations with those that are coming to your museum, but the audience that you'll be serving, have some conversations with them and find out what's most important to them when it comes to art and SEL, what are they most needing to understand?

I think that audience input is essential in shaping the core of any program. 

Emily Kotecki: [00:13:55] Is there anything else about SEL and online learning that we have not talked about that you feel like is really important for anyone who's, whether at their beginning, intermediate or advanced, um, you know, educators developing these types of programs?

Kristin Smith: [00:14:07] I think such a huge thing to just keep in the front of your mind always is that this is a process. There are just no clear cut answers to all of it. You have to come to this work with a hugely open mind and be prepared to feel a little uncomfortable, feel a little unsure and, and work through that and ask questions.

Open yourself to the process of your own understanding of it all.   

Emily Kotecki: [00:14:43] So it's very meta. You're creating a social emotional learning experience. While going through a social, emotional experience yourself while creating that. 

Kristin Smith: [00:14:52] So meta. 

Emily Kotecki: [00:14:53] Very meta. Um, well, Kristin, at the end of every episode at Museum Buzz, we play a game and today your game is trivia where I will give you quotes. From , I've got from a movie and from some authors about emotions, because we're talking about emotions and artists and not only visual artists, but other types of art also helps us channel our emotion.

I'm going to give you the quote and then I'll give you three, I'll give you multiple choice and you can choose which one you think said it. Ready?

Kristin Smith: [00:15:22] Do you know how much I just really, really love trivia. Emily, thank you for this game for all you listeners. Do you sense the sarcasm in my voice? All right, Let's do this. 

Emily Kotecki: [00:15:33] Let's do do it. Okay. Which movie does the character scream? I'm in a glass cage of emotion while inside a telephone booth. Is it a Napoleon dynamite, B anchorman or C Sideways?

Kristin Smith: [00:15:53] Oh man. So good. I'm going to go with Sideways?

Emily Kotecki: [00:16:01] Oh, it was B, Anchorman

Kristin Smith: [00:16:03] That's what was my original, but that's the way I don't like multiple choice. Cause I always question myself and then I get it wrong. 

Emily Kotecki: [00:16:11] because you know, this 

Kristin Smith: [00:16:12] That is, classic anchorman. Yes, yes, yes, 

Emily Kotecki: [00:16:15] Question two, this is a quote, who said this quote? I think you don't want to be at the mercy of my emotions. I want to use them, to enjoy them and to dominate them. Is it A.) Irish playwright, Oscar Wilde, B.) American painter, James Whistler, or C.) English author, Charles Dickens. 

Kristin Smith: [00:16:37] That sounds like Oscar Wilde. 

Emily Kotecki: [00:16:39] Yes, well done Kristin. And you didn't second guess yourself. 

Kristin Smith: [00:16:42] Woohoo! 

Emily Kotecki: [00:16:43] Last question. This is also a quote "education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence." Which poet wrote those words or said, I'm not sure, uh,   Robert Frost, Emily Dickinson, or Maya Angelou. 

Kristin Smith: [00:17:03] Maya Angelou. 

Emily Kotecki: [00:17:04] Robert Frost, 

Kristin Smith: [00:17:05] Darn 

Emily Kotecki: [00:17:06] But great job, Kristin.

Kristin Smith: [00:17:09] [laughter] one out of three! 

Emily Kotecki: [00:17:14] Well, I want to thank you again, Kristin Smith, Project Manager at the North Carolina Museum of Art, for talking to us all about SEL and online learning.

Kristin Smith: [00:17:22] Thanks, Emily. That was fun.

  Emily Kotecki: [00:17:26] Thank you, Kristin, and thank you to everyone for listening. This mini series came out of a publication that I released in may of 2021 called The Distance Learning Workbook: A Launch Guide for Museums, which walks museums through the four foundational components of building a distance learning program. Especially in the wake of the pandemic, many museums are pivoting to distance learning and needed to answer the question of "where do I begin?"  The workbook is very interactive and hands-on walking museums through questions and activities relating to targeting audiences, identifying stakeholders, doing a technology audit, really making it relevant to your institution.

It is free and downloadable on my website, emily-kotecki.com. But a workbook can only do so much. There's only so much time and length that people want to spend. And there is so much to cover in distance learning, which is where this podcast series came out of. So, it is an accompaniment to the workbook and I hope you enjoy the interviews.

I hope you enjoy the workbook. And if you have any questions about either of these or want to talk through ideas or work together, you can contact me through my website, emily-kotecki.com. Thank you. And stay tuned for the next two episodes coming out September 17th and September 24th.